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Report 1227
Report #1227 Skillset: Wicca Skill: Toadcurse Org: Shadowdancers Status: Completed Jul 2013 Furies' Decision: Solution 1. Problem: Toadcurse is the ultimate power in the wiccan skillset. It can be used to take someone out of the fight if they fall below 50% mana until they are either kissed or revert, or alternatively they can be killed with a stomp. Area effect holders, such as mages and trappers, however, influence the fight most through their demesne effects and trap effects, both of which are only active while the associated trap/demesne holder is in the area. Toad currently does not negate these effects, so that toading a mage or trapper without stomping them (which can be tricky, especially in their active demesne) is often not helpful at all. The following solutions are designed with the fact that being toaded is not an instant kill, but is a method which can negate, at least temporarily, someone's impact on a fight. 0 R: 0 Solution #1: When someone is toaded, temporarily clear/disable their enemy list, so that demesne effects, traps, room effects, ect won't hit, the enemy list will be re-instated upon the toad being untoaded by any method (stomp, kiss, passage of time). Toads don't have the power/strength to maintain spells/physical effects. 0 R: 0 Solution #2: As per Viynain's suggestion, make toadcurse strip any offensive effects that would have been deactivated when a target dies. 0 R: 0 Solution #3: In addition to solution 1 or 2, have guardian and wiccan entourages automatically ordered to be passive when the guardian/wiccan is toaded. Player Comments: ---on 7/4 @ 23:58 writes: Solution 1 is okay, though I really do think with the addition of the stun to toad, you really should accept more responsibility if you lose them, even with these passives. ---on 7/5 @ 01:02 writes: A more consistent approach to this, much like defense stripping, is to strip any offensive effects that would have been deactivated when a target dies. Demesne effects, traps, illusions, etc. that would have kept working would die off/deactivate should a toadcurse successfully land. ---on 7/5 @ 05:55 writes: There are more than enough ways to prevent a toad from running. Icewalls will keep a toad contained in a general area, you get a decent stun when you toad people, in groups it's easy enough to announce to the group that you've toaded someone and they can all stomp. Demesne/wiccan effects strike me more as a set and forget situation rather than a constantly maintained focus (you order the trees/elements etc to hit with these effects, then they do so at their own volition). I don't feel this is needed. ---on 7/5 @ 05:57 writes: I mean this is the best way possible but people still escape as toads even with the stun? ---on 7/5 @ 18:43 writes: This report is aimed more at small groups than at single combat. You will notice that with solution 1, things such as briarwalls and phantom walls will remain in place. There are several situations where toads will escape in group combat especially when stun immunity and group hindering is factored in. This will provide respite from the effects even if a toad hops off, so that even if due to combat concerns, the toad can't be stomped, the effects are temporarily lifted and the group gains some advantage from toading the person. ---on 7/5 @ 20:27 writes: You still have other options, and it should be even less of an issue in groups where everyone should be hammering on their stomp alias when they see a toad. Also, if a toad does get away, the demesne effects will follow them as they run, still giving your group relief from the meld effects etc. I'm not convinced this is really needed, if you manage to escape as a toad, you're already completely stripped of all defenses, no need to add extra punishment on to that. ---on 7/5 @ 21:20 writes: Yeah, I'm not sure this is necessary given that toads in groups should be even easier to kill. If anything, I'd say that enemy groups trying to kiss the toad and succeed is more annoying on a group level. ---on 7/5 @ 23:31 writes: I think that while toadcurse is not an instant kill, and will not be an instant kill, since it has the power cost and conditions of an instant kill, it should be debilitating, and completely take the toad out of the fight until they are untoaded. ---on 7/5 @ 23:33 writes: As things are, it will indeed take some people out of the fight, but as I stated in the problem, people with passive effects will just have a slightly reduced impact. As for defense stripping, it is painful, but often times people will re enter a fight after death sans defenses, as having that extra person, even defenseless, still provides a significant advantage. ---on 7/5 @ 23:36 writes: (sorry I keep hitting enter prematurely) In the end, I feel that toadcurses purpose as a powerful affliction which removes someone from a fight is not being served in its current incarnation, which is why I am seeking to change that. In addition, since the effects of the toadcurse are temporary, and designed to be so, that is why solution 1 is also temporary, and designed to be so. ---on 7/6 @ 03:25 writes: I disagree, I feel it is being served, the toaded person is taken out of a fight (no one is going to sit in the room they gor toaded in, they're going to keep running around until they are untoaded), which accomplishes exactly what you are proposing, demesne effects will follow them. Kissing toads to rescue someone is a death sentence if you get toaded in exchange (which seems to happen more often than not) due to the fact it stuns you as well and people are already spamming alias for stomping. Toad doesn't need anymore buffs than it already has. ---on 7/6 @ 05:58 writes: Currently if a toad escapes a fight, there are two choices: 1) have someone go and chase them, this removes one of your own fighters from the situation, which communicates the same disadvantage as toading someone in the first place. Chasing the toad is doubly risky because demesne effects which slow movement passively follow the toad around, giving it long enough to hop away each step before you can get there. Not chasing the toad allows it to sit in the next room over, still communicating its benefit to its team. In both situations, the time cost and power cost do not warrent the benefits it brings. In addition, kissing a toad is a 50% chance of becoming a toad yourself. In the case of lower value targets kissing higher value targets, I think it is *always* a good move to do, if people do not wish to risk sacrificing themselves for it, it should be a tactical error on the side of the toad, and not on the side of the toadcurser. ---on 7/6 @ 06:03 writes: In essence, I feel that being toaded should be a strong offensive blow, one that the opponent must deal with. Right now, all the onus is on the toadcurser's side to deal with the toad - I would like it to be shared with both sides. Sending someone after the toad will still take someone out of the fight, ignoring the toad will still cause effects to be reraised, and kissing the toad will also reraise the effects. This will take some of the strain of of the toadcursers side for dealing with a toad, and put it in the opponents side - while still allowing the enemy side ample opportunity to save the toad for great reward. ---on 7/6 @ 22:02 writes: There is a lot of assumptions being made here, no one is going to run one room and sit there as a toad, that's asking to get stomped because people undoubtedly always chase, even you chase toads, Nihta. Being toaded -is- a strong offensive blow as is, it doesn't need to be made more so. ---on 7/7 @ 02:40 writes: I don't see what the fuss is about here. Toadcurse is strictly worse than absolve (yes I know that wiccans are better at draining the celestines but still), if all of these changes were implemented.... toadcurse would still be strictly worse than absolve. I support all the solutions. ---on 7/7 @ 14:01 writes: The new solutions are fine too, solution 2 or 3 is okay with me I guess. I wouldn't compare toadcurse to absolve as it's not a good idea to consider an ability outside of the context of its skillset. Wiccans' potent mana drain is a large part of the reason why toadcurse should never be an instakill and the change to give it a stun already did a lot to move it toward that. I think the 'fuss' is just a discussion for future consideration and envoys expressing their overall thoughts. ---on 7/16 @ 13:44 writes: If it doesn't take much coding time then sure, if it does then it is probably not worth it. ---on 7/27 @ 14:39 writes: Solutions 1, 2, and 3 are fine (even all together). They do not change the design of the skill by trying to turn it into an instakill, but they instead enhance it- a toad should have some difficulty persuading angels and demons to do its bidding, or command the forces of nature's fury.